Shawna & Amy Interview

Shawna:
Okay, Amy, we’re here this morning and I’m going to start asking you the questions that I have. The first question I ask people is what parenting name do you use for yourself? Are you mom or?

Amy:
I’m a mom. Yes.

Shawna:
What does your daughter call you?

Amy:
My daughter calls me mom.

Shawna:
She calls you mom. Was there a reason for that choice? Did you choose that name or did she just automatically call you that?

Amy:
She just always called mama or mom. It was mama when she was young, then as she got older it was just mom.

Shawna:
And she’s a teenager now?

Amy:
Yeah, she’s 15, actually she’s going to be 17 years old in January so she’s 16.

Shawna:
Wow. Wow.

Amy:
But I also have a 25 year old son.

Shawna:
And were you pregnant to get the kids that you have?

Amy:
Excuse me? Come again?

Shawna:
Were you pregnant to get the kids that you have to do? Did you make those babies?

Amy:
Yes, I did.

Shawna:
Yeah. And how did you get pregnant?

Amy:
I got pregnant with my first child, I was 20 years old when I got pregnant his father, sexual intercourse.

Shawna:
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And then the second as well?

Amy:
And my daughter, I had my daughter when I was 28.

Shawna:
And did you have any miscarriages or abortions?

Amy:
I had two miscarriages previously in my mid thirties. One was the first miscarriage was an ectopic pregnancy and the second miscarriage was a molar pregnancy. So it was a pregnancy that wasn’t developing correctly and it started breaking up on its own.

Shawna:
What’s the word that you used? I don’t think I’ve heard that before.

Amy:
I think it’s called a molar pregnancy if I’m not mistaken.

Shawna:
How is that spelled?

Amy:
M-O-L-A-R.

Shawna:
Oh, interesting. I haven’t heard that, I’ll have to look that up. [crosstalk 00:02:08]

Amy:
I think so.

Shawna:
So your body expelled the pregnancy on its own or was it one of those ones where they had to go in.

Amy:
Well, the first one, the ectopic pregnancy, the pregnancy was growing in the [inaudible 00:02:21] and it didn’t continue to go down to the uterus. And then the second one, there was something there, but it was caused by abnormal chromosomes. So either the egg was no good or the sperm was no good and it wasn’t developing correctly. And so it just started breaking up on its own.

Shawna:
And so your kids were already big kids by the time this was happening.

Amy:
Yes. Yes. Yes.

Shawna:
So did you talk to them a lot about what was going on? Did they know?

Amy:
Yes, my daughter, my daughter, yes. My daughter understood what was going on? Yes. It actually happened… It’s funny how it happened because both pregnancies that I lost happened close to her birthday, so she always remembers.

Shawna:
Yeah. Of course. Of course.

Amy:
But it was always a free conversation, it wasn’t too much of a touchy conversation to have with her because I’m very open with her when it comes to sex and sexuality and things that usually occur, well, always occur in a woman’s body. She doesn’t shy away from anything, she understands.

Shawna:
So you were saying you work in an abortion clinic are you working in an advocacy?

Amy:
I do. I am an abortion care provider. I’m a patient advocate. Yes.

Shawna:
And so what do you tell her about your job or what does she ask you?

Amy:
When I first got the job, I told her that I was going to be working in the Woman’s Reproductive Rights helping women make decisions that are right for them. And then she was like, “Oh, really what kind of clinic is it? And I said, “Well, I’m going to be working in an abortion care clinic. And she was like, “Wow, that’s great, mom.” She was all for it. I’ve always raised her to understand that it’s okay to make your own decisions in your life, especially being a woman nobody should ever tell you what it is that you have to do, or the decisions that you should make for yourself.

Amy:
And so she’s always understood ever since she was young, I think I started talking to her about sex when she was about, maybe about 10 years old. I just always wanted her to understand especially sending a child out into the world, you always need to let them know what’s going on with their bodies things that they should be aware of. She was pretty cool with me working in an abortion care, she even comes to my job.

Shawna:
Oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So when you talked to your… Do you call them are they your patients or your clients, the patients, the people that you-

Amy:
I call them my patients-

Shawna:
Their patients.

Amy:
Yeah. I call them my patients.

Shawna:
Do some of them ever come to you and they’re worried about how to talk to their children or their family about getting an abortion.

Amy:
It really varies I meet so many women every single day from all walks of the earth and they all have different beliefs. I’m Hispanic, so I’m a Latina. So I really find that some of the Latin community especially when they come from South America is very, very, very religious. So some of them they come in, they’re very worried about what their family is going to think, that they’re doing a sin and I try to explain to them, “What you’re doing is not nothing wrong.” There are some places that I tell them that they can look up online, that they can read about prayers, that it’s okay for you to get an abortion. Things that make them feel comfortable for them to know that they’re not making the wrong choice and that no matter what it is that the God that they believe in is going to forgive them. And I tell them that they should be able to express and explain this to their family as well. But I come across a lot of that like with the religious belief.

Shawna:
Did you also grow up in a faith based religion?

Amy:
I grew up Catholic.

Shawna:
Catholic.

Amy:
I grew up in Brooklyn, New York in a Catholic neighborhood. And I did my communion, I did my confirmation, but as I got older I made my own decisions on what it is that I would believe in. Now that I’m a grownup, I could still call myself Catholic, but I’m a Catholic for choice.

Shawna:
Yes. Yes. Is that a movement that exists in the Catholic church? Is that a-

Amy:
There is. You can find Catholic churches that are Catholics for Choice. If you even go online there’s a community Catholics for Choice. Yes.

Shawna:
It’s interesting because I live in Seattle, so it’s a very liberal area. And so I’m always curious to hear about the conflict that people experience, who maybe they… And I grew up, obviously, I grew up as someone who only knew about choice. I didn’t really know that there were people that were anti-choice. And so I’m so curious about this conflict of people that maybe don’t necessarily believe in abortion, but they also need to get one that’s really interesting to me.

Amy:
I’ve come across that a lot too. I’ve worked in abortion care for about eight and a half years already and you see a lot. You see a lot of young girls that come in and they’re like, “Oh my God my family if they would find out because we’re Christian.” Or sometimes you have Muslim women that come in and they’re like, “Oh my God.” They wear their-

Shawna:
Abayas.

Amy:
… their cover ups and everything, so nobody can see them and I get it. But nobody can judge anyone until they’re in their position, but I see it a lot every day.

Shawna:
Do you ever like have a hard day at work and you come home and you tell your daughter these stories. It feels like you must hear so much.

Amy:
Sometimes there are very tough days, especially when because we deal with minors.

Shawna:
Yes that must be so hard.

Amy:
I deal with a lot of young ladies that are very close to my-

Shawna:
Yes.

Amy:
… daughter’s age. When I see like a tough situation that a young lady has been sexually assaulted or has been molested and that is the cause of her pregnancy. I sit down and I try to take this all in and I say to myself I need… Sometimes I’ll sit down with her and I’ll say, “Look, Cameron today was so rough. I look at you and I say to myself I’m so thankful that you’re so smart and you understand what’s going on in life because it’s a hard world out there.”

Shawna:
It really is.

Amy:
It’s tough.

Shawna:
It really is. And I just wonder because I’ve I’ve just been doing these interviews for a short time. I think I’ve done about nine so far. And just hearing people’s stories about their pregnancies and their abortions and their miscarriages. It’s so much to process I found even some nights after doing interviews and hearing about it, it was hard to sleep. So I’m just curious about your work, hearing these stories all day. How do you protect yourself, but also let people in and continue to show compassion for people.

Amy:
The first time I had an abortion I was 16 years old. I think I was 16 or seven… No, actually I was 17 years old. And I went to my mother and I told my mother, “Mom I’m pregnant.” My mom she raised me and my sister as a single mother in Brooklyn, New York. And she did her best and she was very, very open and honest with both of us when it came to sexuality and just everything in general, life. And I appreciate that from her because that is the way I am with my kids. And I feel that’s the reason why my children are so strong and so open-minded, and very humble. But I was 17 years old and I had my first abortion in Queens Boulevard an abortion provider.

Amy:
I think it was called Choices if I’m not mistaken at Queens Boulevard. And it was an experience, you sit there, there’s a lot of women in there waiting for hours and hours. It’s a little uncomfortable at times because you don’t know what the other person is experiencing, but you do know that they’re probably there to do the same thing that you are. But it’s an experience I didn’t regret it because I knew that I was young and this was not what I was ready for. I remember laying on that table and I needed a local procedure so I was awake.

Shawna:
And were you scared.

Amy:
Yeah. I remembered everything from the minute it started to the time it was over. And then after that you leave there and you leave there like, “Wow-

Shawna:
Did your mom go with you?

Amy:
…. I can’t believe I did this.” Yeah. My mom was with me. My mom waited for me.

Shawna:
Oh good.

Amy:
She did come with me. And then afterwards she’s like, “Are you okay? Things are going to be all right.” This is something that you wanted to do, she supported me. I told her I was like, “Mom I’m really young. I don’t know the first thing about a child.”

Shawna:
She was there to support me, my mother. Did she share her own experiences about things like that with you when you had an abortion too.

Amy:
Not for nothing. I never even asked my mother if she ever got an abortion. Never.

Shawna:
So interesting.

Amy:
Maybe that’s something I might ask her.

Shawna:
It’s funny because in interviewing people, some of the people that I’ve talked to have talked about their own mothers’ abortions, and how that story shaped them because for many it was a secret that they found out much later, it explained things about their life that they didn’t…. like tension at a certain time or whatever that they didn’t ever as a kid they didn’t understand.

Amy:
I never really asked her because I know that she got married when she was 16 years old and had me when she was 19.

Shawna:
Yeah. Very young.

Amy:
So back in those days they got married really young and got pregnant young as well. I’ve never really asked her. But we grew up in a big family with all women. My mother has nine sisters-

Shawna:
Wow. That’s amazing.

Amy:
… and two brothers. And all my cousins and their girls and kids, they’re all females.

Shawna:
Nice.

Amy:
There’s only a handful of males.

Shawna:
Yeah. Do you credit that for how empowered that you are and how you grew up-

Amy:
Yes. Yes.

Shawna:
… all the women around you?

Amy:
I do. I grew up with a lot of strong women. I’ll tell you that much. A lot. We’ve been through so many things in our life that it makes you stronger.

Shawna:
Yes. Yes. I’m trying to think if I have other questions about your work. So typically you see patients the day of their procedure, or even before when they’re trying to decide what to do.

Amy:
Well, where I live at, I live in Philadelphia, PA and Philadelphia, PA, GA limit is 23.6. So I see young ladies that start from being five weeks pregnant all the way up to after 12 weeks the second trimester.

Shawna:
In Washington we can go over to 26.

Amy:
Yeah. And I think New Jersey, we can go up to 24.6. I think if we have anybody further, then we’ll send them to Washington or I think it’s to Mexico.

Shawna:
Oh wow. Okay.

Amy:
Yeah. And that’s when we give them the information on who it is that they can contact. Like for example, I worked yesterday and I saw approximately 34 patients.

Shawna:
Wow. That’s amazing.

Amy:
Yes. Mm-hmm (affirmative). 34 patients checked in, I think we gave about 25 abortions yesterday.

Shawna:
Thank you. Thank you for doing that work. That’s really amazing. That’s a lot of people coming through. And so you’re open Saturdays and that must be a big day for people because it’s such convenient for them.

Amy:
The busiest days, we’re open from Tuesday through Saturday and the busiest days are I would say Fridays and Saturdays.

Shawna:
Wow. Yeah. Because people then could take a couple days of work.

Amy:
Yeah. Exactly. Because then they have their couple of days off probably from work to recuperate. So those are usually the days that is the most busiest, but we also do medication abortions up to 10 weeks as well. So we do first try, we do medication, we do first try and we do second try, which at the 18 weeks a procedure, an abortion procedure can be a two day procedure. So the first day then we’ll get them started with the medication and then they’ll come back the next day.

Shawna:
Yeah. That’s really interesting. I had an abortion as well, but I had a medication abortion and so I was just at my house.

Amy:
You know it’s funny because I don’t mean to set you off, but a lot of young women come in to do the medication. And I always say to myself, I think the reason why they do it is because they feel more comfortable in their home, but I honestly think it’s more painful to do a medication abortion-

Shawna:
I think so too.

Amy:
… than to do a surgery.

Shawna:
I think so too. It’s funny because it seems like… So I was married and in my 30s when I had… Well, I’m 50 now and it seems like it’s divided a lot sort of race, socioeconomic lines too where I noticed that for white women it’s really common to do medication abortions. And all my friends I talked to who had surgical abortions it sounded much less painful. Because I have to say that that medication abortion I had was as painful as my worst miscarriage. It was really bad I was-

Amy:
That’s honestly what it is. It’s a medically induced miscarriage.

Shawna:
Yes. It was really bad. I was throwing up the whole time. It was something. At the time it seemed like I had more control and I think that’s what appealed to me the idea that I would just be at home with my husband and… But if I needed to do it again, I would definitely do surgical it sounds much easier.

Amy:
Girls sometimes the young ladies they’ll come in and they’ll come to the window and they’ll be like, “I’m going to do the medication, but I don’t know does it hurt?” And I’m honest with them I’m like, “Listen, you’re going to experience cramping for approximately two to three hours the second day, and it’s going to be pretty intense. It really depends on what you can tolerate.”

Shawna:
Yeah. Well, especially as a young woman, I think that would have been really scary for me. But I think they also gave me pain meds too, so I think I was pretty high as well.

Amy:
Yeah. Cause we previously we used to give them Tylenol four to take home with them to take in the evening, but now we don’t prescribe that anymore. We just tell them… We now only prescribe them ibuprofen.

Shawna:
Oh boy.

Amy:
We don’t give them any narcotics anymore.

Shawna:
Because you’re avoiding opioid because you want to-

Amy:
Exactly.

Shawna:
I get that too.

Amy:
So we don’t give them narcotics anymore.

Shawna:
No that’s hard. Okay. So you’ve got a lot of women in there everyday, do you have people that protest outside?

Amy:
Every single day.

Shawna:
How do you deal with that?

Amy:
Everyday.

Shawna:
Oh, that just would make me so insane. What do they do? Do you recognize them.

Amy:
I work in abortion care for so long. I know the protestors who they are. They’re always going to harass us and they’re always going to say things to us. Thank God. we have a person that works in the front of our building that is amazing.

Shawna:
A security or security person-

Amy:
She escorts our patients inside all the time, they’ll see me in the morning and they’ll holler at me and they’ll say something, “Oh you’re going to-

Shawna:
Kill a baby today or something.

Amy:
Yeah. “You’re going to and kill babies today dah, dah, dah.” And I’m like, “Whatever.” I pay no mind to them. The less you interact with them the better.

Shawna:
Have you ever had the experience of… I heard this one show on the radio and the doctor was talking about how one of the people that they used to see out there protesting came in for an abortion. Have you ever had that happen? That just blew my mind.

Amy:
No, we’ve never had that happen-

Shawna:
It’s so crazy.

Amy:
… but we have like really, really good security at the door. So she checks everyone in who’s coming in and out of that building. And if they don’t have an appointment, we don’t let them upstairs.

Shawna:
Do they have like really horrible graphic signs with like pictures of-

Amy:
Yeah. They do. They do. They do. They always hold up those stupid graphic signs, keep them on the corner of the block and then they’ll hold up their Christians signs in the front. Then sometimes we have a doctor she’s actually an OB family planning doctor and she’s against abortion. And she’ll always give false information about medical abortions that she has a reversal pill and this and this and that. It’s crazy.

Shawna:
So she stands out there and tries to talk people-

Amy:
Yeah. She stands out there and she preaches that there’s a reversal pill.

Shawna:
Oh this is false. I’m surprised that she doesn’t lose her license for that that’s crazy. Wow. Do you ever feel unsafe? Have you ever felt unsafe? Has anyone ever tried to follow you.

Amy:
No, I don’t feel unsafe. No. I never feel unsafe. I think I don’t let them get to me. I’m too strong.

Shawna:
Good. No, I like that a lot. I’m just curious about that. Sometimes you’re having a bad day and it does kind of get you.

Amy:
Yeah. I don’t let them get to me.

Shawna:
Nice. That’s nice. So do you have a copy of your abortion, the book in your waiting room?

Amy:
I do. I do.

Shawna:
That’s so cool. I love what they did with the book it really is beautiful.

Amy:
It is beautiful. And I love all the stories, they’re amazing.

Shawna:
Me too I really enjoy-

Amy:
I know a couple of the women that are in that book.

Shawna:
I got to be in the book and it was really, really cool because we got to read our stories for a big book reading. It was very cool to hear everybody’s stories, and I’ve been really thankful to be able to participate with them.

Amy:
You should be thankful and you’re going to be blessed, so keep doing the work that you do because we need more people to give this information out. And for you to be doing it and for the children to understand that there’s nothing wrong with this, that’s an amazing thing as well. So you should be very proud of yourself.

Shawna:
Oh, well thank you. Thank you.

Amy:
And I appreciate you.

Shawna:
Thank you very much. Well, our goal is to have this book out this year and then we’ll send you one of those too.

Amy:
That’s amazing.

Shawna:
Is there anything that… So my goal in the book is obviously I can’t… I can’t really include everybody’s experience when I’m talking, but I just want to make sure that I don’t exclude anyone. And is there anything that you feel like words or ideas that are really important for kids to know that you would want to include in the book?

Amy:
I would always tell them like I tell my child, “Don’t let anyone make decisions for yourself. You are a human being and any decision you make is the right one. You know what it is that you need to do for yourself and always value your beliefs, be strong. And especially being a woman is the most important thing because we are the strongest thing on this earth.” I always tell her that and that’s why she is the person she is today. And I will continue to tell her this until she becomes a woman.

Amy:
And she’s a young lady right now, but she should always feel comfortable to come to me for anything and I tell her that. Even though these children nowadays even though they get scared, I feel that they shouldn’t be scared. They should always be able to go to their mother or even their father especially if they have two parents that have the same beliefs that’s amazing.

Shawna:
What about so the one thing that’s come in a lot in all these conversations that I haven’t heard you talk about is the idea of whether or not it’s a baby. Like you were saying the people out front they yell, “You’re going to go kill a baby.” And so one thing that we’re talking about in the book is explaining the idea to kids that it’s really not a baby unless you want it to be a baby before that you’re pregnant. And so are there words that you use or are there words that people when you’re talking to them in the clinic that they use, or do they just refer to their pregnancy as a baby that they’re going to terminate. What are the words they use?

Amy:
They always say baby they don’t know the different terms. They’ll always say baby.

Shawna:
They’ll never say fetus or something.

Amy:
We don’t say babies sometimes or I’ll just say fetus or…. I don’t even know even to say fetus because when it’s very early in the pregnancy it’s not even anything to me.

Shawna:
It’s just cells.

Amy:
It’s a blob. It’s just cells.

Shawna:
How do you convey that to people that maybe do you have patients who ever having a really hard time with it and do you explain the idea to them.

Amy:
I do explain it to them. I do explain it to them. I tell them, “Listen, what you’re carrying right now is not a baby.” I said, “All it is right now is just cells, it’s not even developed. When you have this procedure or that’s going to come out is clots.”

Shawna:
Yeah. Just a blump of stuff.

Amy:
“There’s nothing formed. There’s nothing… It’s just clots. That’s it.”

Shawna:
Yeah. That’s so interesting. And then what words do the women use when they’re talking about their abortion? If they call it a baby, what do they say, “I can’t have this baby.”

Amy:
Yeah. They’ll say, “I can’t have this baby. I already have two children already,” or, “I can’t afford this,” or, “this is just not something that I’m ready for.” They’ll always say that baby.

Shawna:
Yeah. Yeah. That’s so interesting to me. I need to think more about that, I like the idea of that when we talk about it with our kids, we do, we say, “It’s not a baby yet,” but I feel like so many people-

Amy:
I try to explain to them like, “It’s not a baby, not yet.”

Shawna:
Is there anything else that you think that I should know? Is there a special experience that you think that I… Someone I should talk to or?

Amy:
I don’t know. I know that you’re going to speak to my other friend that works with me, right?

Shawna:
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I have one more interview this afternoon.

Amy:
She’s also a mother. We both work in the same organization. So she’ll have a lot of insights for you. She’s worked in the community for longer than me now.

Shawna:
In case I didn’t ask, how did you get into it? What did you do before and how did you choose this work?

Amy:
You want to hear something funny?

Shawna:
Yeah. I do.

Amy:
Before this I used to live in Miami and I used to work for Habitat for Humanity, which was a Christian organization and build homes for low-income families.

Shawna:
Yeah. But you’ve always helping people.

Amy:
Yeah. Always helping people. When I moved to Philly and the person that used to be the administrator for where I work we became really good friends and she got me the job.

Shawna:
That’s great. And so it wasn’t something that you had even in your mind you never thought, “I wanted to be an abortion patient advocate.”

Amy:
No. I never thought. But you know what? This was something that was great. It was a great decision.

Shawna:
Yeah. It sounds like you really enjoy your work. And it sounds like you’re very good at it.

Amy:
I love my job.

Shawna:
That’s awesome.

Amy:
You know how some people say they hate their job. They go to work. They dread to go to work. Nah. I wake up in the morning. I’m like, “All right, let’s do this.”

Shawna:
That’s very cool. That’s very cool. You’re helping people change their lives, that’s wonderful.

Amy:
Yeah. Yeah. And I always tell the girls, “This decision you make this a life changing decision. You have to be sure. Just because we work in an abortion care doesn’t mean that you have to have an abortion-

Shawna:
Right.

Amy:
… you do whatever you want to do. You have choices and whatever it is that you decide that’s fine.” I always tell them that because the protestors they think because the work we do that we’ll… Yeah. We do 100% abortions but we don’t tell nobody they have to have an abortion.

Shawna:
Right. Yeah. Well, that’s what I always think of because the people that like you that are doing this work and I’m a childcare provider it’s like I actually believe I’m very pro-life. And that’s why I hate that they try to use that word because the work that we do, we care for people and we love people and we just want people to make the best decisions for themselves.

Amy:
Right.

Shawna:
I respect that. Well, thank you for talking to me today I really appreciate it.

Amy:
Oh no. You’re welcome.

Shawna:
If you think of anything else that I should know please email me or contact me, it’s a work in progress so hopefully-

Amy:
Yeah. Definitely.

Shawna:
… in the next year or so, you’ll get to see the work.

Amy:
Awesome. Amazing. That’s great.

Shawna:
All right. Well, thanks Amy. You have a good day.

Amy:
Nah. You too. Take care, all right.

Shawna:
Thank you. Bye. Bye.

Amy:
Bye.